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 Post subject: Install/remove Breakers 120/208 panel
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:35 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:05 am
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Is installing/removing breakers in a 208/120V panelboard typically a "permit required" task?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Location: Charlotte, NC
PAult wrote:
Is installing/removing breakers in a 208/120V panelboard typically a "permit required" task?

Thanks


Yes, but why do it live??? The permit requires you to justify doing the work energized.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:41 pm 

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Zog wrote:
Yes, but why do it live??? The permit requires you to justify doing the work energized.


I agree. Just wanted to check.

How are other companies to this? Are you shutting these panels off to install the breakers or do they use a "Standing" work permit?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:58 am
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Location: NY
What is a Standing Work Permit ? I thought live work permits were issued on a case by case basis.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:32 pm 
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haze10 wrote:
Look at the 2009 Handbook, 130.1(B) 1 where it talks about Routine work not needing a permit (or rather a long term permit).

"...Permits that cover routine work tasks to be performed by trained and qualified employees can be written to cover a long period of time. For instance, a worker might be trained and qualified to replace a fuse that involves an exposed live part. If the worker is trained to understand the electrical hazards associated with exchanging the fuse and is wearing any necessary PPE, a permit might be issued that covers, for instance, a three month period..."



The word STANDING is used for some (including me) to describe the routine electrical work permit and job breifing. IMO, this routine EWP and good training, work observance checkoff and safe work practices should ease the pain for many common work task.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:49 pm 
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Just to be clear to all. I do not advocate live manipulative work. One should make every attempt to de-energize equipment were manipulative work is being preformed. But in the real world there are task happening everyday live.
Work smarter not harder. :rolleyes:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I recommend the use of an "Annual Energized Electrical Work Permit" concept for low risk energized electrical work, use this to annually recertify that your electrical workers still have competency in the more routined tasks.

Of course this process should be defined in your Elecrical Safety Program where I also recommend you include an Electrical Safety Orientation Process for your electrical workers that is also renewed annually.

Regards;
Terry Becker, P.Eng.
Owner
ESPS Electrical Safety Program Solutions INC.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:01 am 

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We have Safe Operating Practices (SOP) where tasks such as what you are talking about are covered. That way we do not need to fill out a permit for everything. In an SOP we spell out the entire procedure including the requirement to do it with the power off if possible, but also spell out the necessary PPE and insulated tools necessary to conduct the task with the power on.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:27 am 
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Thanks ChevsMark, sounds like a good plan. Like I tell people, any plan is far greater then no plan at all. :D

SOP's, PMP's, JSP's all are important to have documented. However, be careful that the plans are not so strict that it becomes difficult to live with. I see a lot of saftey management people design such rules that is impossible to work with.

IMO, make sure you have a good team and a mix of professionals designing the documents. I am a detailed guy that loves a great plan and documention is a great tool. It sounds like your company is on the ball.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:13 pm 
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To add to the debate about removing and replacing live breakers, I would call the manufacturer of the equipment whether his breakers are designed to be manipulated in this way. If it goes wrong then his reply to you is going to be the same one that he is going to give as an expert witness in a court room if you are called to account for your actions. You may be surprised at the reply to your question.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:08 pm 

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Clarification

Ok, so let me see if I understand correctly.

When you refer to standing permits on routine tasks (routine tasks I would identify as those having a procedure in place) -- are these just your normal EWP forms extended for x numbers of months? Would you revalidate every time one of these jobs was to be performed?

I guess my question is, in order to retain the effectiveness of the energized work permitting system, how do you still comply with 70E's EWP requirement for energized work?

If a task (like the one mentioned to install/remove breakers) has a safe work procedure involved and all electricians are certified in this procedure (upon arrival and yearly after that), can you just keep a piece of paper on file with the electricians name and all routine tasks they are certified to do?

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:01 am 
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Good question Jack.

Quote:
routine tasks I would identify as those having a procedure in place


Routine Task involves several components. What you listed is only one of those components. Energised electrical routine task should be given only to those experanced, knowledgeable and skilled worker to preform.

Suggested reading is NFPA70E Handbook Page 65, (2) & Repetitive or Similar Task (3) Routine Work & Annex I (Job briefing)

My opinion is not based on anything concrete but this is sightly referenced in the NFPA 70E Handbook as a possible option for routine electrical task.

My preference for handling this is to complete a EWP with all the names signed off by the workers having received training to include; Understands the dangers, has the skills, knows the PPE requirements, observed and exhibited safe work practices while doing the actual work, awareness of constant change of conditions, checked off knowing the sequence of steps and the knowledge of stopping work as needed when personal safety may be at risk.

The EWP must have a header or listed as “Routine Work EWP” with an expiration date. Normally, this is set not to exceed one year or less.

I would create an attached document referencing the following:
A documented detailing the task, name of equipment identified that is routinely worked on energized. (Eg. Busplug installation <200A)

This document should include why a task must completed energized, worker requirements before starting work (eg. Equipment controls several large production system and lighting if shut off may place worker in danger. Worker should advise shift manager of work, caution tape work area, post attendant, obtain PPE of *?*?.)

Another attachment you may place any standard work practices, safe work practices or other documentation referencing the task with the Routine Work EWP.

Any energized work is not an acceptable practice. But some routine low risk work in the real world is not out of the question.

Document and obtain signatures for everything. (Eg. Training and description of videos) Completed documents signed and approved by high management personnel and training that is well documented and signed by workers knowing the risk and accepting safety as a personal responsibility with the ability to stop work if a condition exist that increases the hazard that the worker does not feel comfortable performing his or her duty.

I find that when a plant manager has to place his or her name on this document it quickly becomes a new ball game and suddenly a lot of questions come about.
Before taking the time to doing the “routine work EWP” check with all policy makers and management authorities in control for agreement that this is an acceptable method of performing routine energized electrical task only with qualified workers willing to accept the risk. The job must be completed by the specific qualified worker for the task only. The task cannot be rushed to completion, made to be completed by the worker or disciplined for inaction of performing the task if not the person performing the work is not comfortable with the risk.

I quickly laid this out so excuse any errors. I hope this helps you understand briefly the importance of documentation and training.

Thanks


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