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 Post subject: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Times
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:01 pm 
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In ETAP (I'm using V16.1), where do I specify breaking opening delays caused by the multifunction relay or the lockout relay?


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:21 am 
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You can go into the bus editor and the Arc Flash page and manually enter in a fault clearing time.


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:14 am 
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Not sure if you meant intentional (programmed) delay? Also, make sure that the relay is outputting to the HVCB (Output tab in relay editor).

Open Relay Editor > OCR tab > adjust Delay

http://imgur.com/M2lHA3R


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:23 am 
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grasshopper wrote:
Not sure if you meant intentional (programmed) delay? Also, make sure that the relay is outputting to the HVCB (Output tab in relay editor).

Open Relay Editor > OCR tab > adjust Delay

http://imgur.com/M2lHA3R


no i was referring to the breaker opening times (3 cycle / 5 cycle) etc.


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:18 pm 
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mbk.2k3 wrote:
grasshopper wrote:
Not sure if you meant intentional (programmed) delay? Also, make sure that the relay is outputting to the HVCB (Output tab in relay editor).

Open Relay Editor > OCR tab > adjust Delay

http://imgur.com/M2lHA3R


no i was referring to the breaker opening times (3 cycle / 5 cycle) etc.


Does this answer your question?:
https://imgur.com/a/rEgDL


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:19 pm 
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grasshopper wrote:
mbk.2k3 wrote:
grasshopper wrote:
Not sure if you meant intentional (programmed) delay? Also, make sure that the relay is outputting to the HVCB (Output tab in relay editor).

Open Relay Editor > OCR tab > adjust Delay

http://imgur.com/M2lHA3R


no i was referring to the breaker opening times (3 cycle / 5 cycle) etc.


Does this answer your question?:
https://imgur.com/a/rEgDL


yup, perfect thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:02 pm 
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I'm not an ETAP user, but it seems odd that lockout relay time would need to be added to either the relay time or breaker clearing time in the program. Someone looking at the values in the future may think an error was made. The lockout relay should have it's own separate entry that would default to and be left at zero when one is not used.


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:46 pm 
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stevenal wrote:
I'm not an ETAP user, but it seems odd that lockout relay time would need to be added to either the relay time or breaker clearing time in the program. Someone looking at the values in the future may think an error was made. The lockout relay should have it's own separate entry that would default to and be left at zero when one is not used.


I would tend to agree but it's not in SKM either. And lockout relays aren't the only delay. You'd also get a delay for instance if you use AC vs. DC control in MV breakers since DC relays usually have around a 1/4 cycle (4 ms) operating time while AC relays nearly always specify it as a 1 cycle delay.

And I know it's just the way it's always been done but lockout relays just don't make any sense to me. I mean...why use them in an interposing relay manner? Why not just hardware all the trip functions directly to the breaker coil or to the breaker normally open auxiliary contact (if it uses these to remove power from the trip coil after the trip occurs)? The lockout relay coil can just be wired in parallel to the breaker trip coil and could optionally be wired through a normally closed contact so that the trip flag only appears once the breaker has actually tripped. Or a somewhat more complicated version would use the NC contact on the breaker to operate the lockout relay and the NO contact on the lockout relay so that it truly "locks out" trip coil power in sort of a "two step" approach.

I've gone this route in one location where they were absolutely beside themselves that simply doing away with all the lights and butters on the front of the breaker and leaving just a microprocessor controlled trip unit was not acceptable. And the reason...(lol) because you can accidentally lean up against a button and trigger the breaker open whereas that won't happen with a lockout relay, despite however many times I've had a reflective vest or a shirt or jacket catch on a lockout relay trigger handle and pull it.


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:35 am 
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Then instead of a lockout relay field, just provide a time adder field with comment field to explain why a non-zero value was used.

The LORs I use will not manually trigger, they just manually reset.


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 Post subject: Re: ETAP: Multifunction relay, Lockout Relay, Operating Time
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:42 am 
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stevenal wrote:
Then instead of a lockout relay field, just provide a time adder field with comment field to explain why a non-zero value was used.

The LORs I use will not manually trigger, they just manually reset.


Hopefully the software vendors read this.

The only lockout relays I ever see anywhere are Electroswitch brand. It's a "generic" pistol grip relay. You can really make it do anything depending on the wiring.. The lockout relay must receive a "trip" signal in order for it to change states from closed to "tripped" in order for it to be able to lockout and prevent pumping or automatically resetting after a trip. You can't really avoid this and still be a "lockout relay"...that is, a relay/switch that prevents the breaker from automatically resetting and closing back in without manually resetting it once the conditions that cause a trip signal (generally from a protection relay) pass and the trip signal is removed.

Depending on how it is wired up it is certainly possible to "disable" the manual trip function such as by only supplying power through the protection relays or through a separate trip button but you may want to look more closely at how it is wired because what you are describing isn't typical because it would add an extra needless "open" or "trip" button.


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