It is currently Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:33 pm



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
ekstra   ara
 Post subject: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:44 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:27 am
Posts: 13
I feel silly needing to ask this, but besides common sense, what in code or standard requires a vendor to put the correct panel name on a label? I know they are not required to put any name.

Example: Vendor has switchboard MSB with 10 cal IE, he wants to place that label on subfeeds; panel 1 and panel 2. He plans on labeling all three panels with copies of the labels from MSB. They will have MSB as the equipment name on each label and same IE.

I would like to have a code or something that clearly states labeling must be accurate.

Thanks in advance.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:44 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:42 am
Posts: 58
Maybe via OSHA?

Found this article: https://www.ecmweb.com/safety/article/2 ... art-1-of-2.

Mike


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:31 am 
Plasma Level
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 851
Location: Rutland, VT
You may want to refer to NFPA 70E, Article 130.5(H) which addresses labeling. It does mention that the label needs to have either available incident energy for the equipment, min arc rating of PPE or Site specific level of PPE. The label the vendor wants to put on violates this as it is not for the equipment the label is going on.

_________________
Barry Donovan, P.E.
www.workplacesafetysolutions.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:58 am 
Plasma Level
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 1616
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Adding to previous comments, if they are trying to simplify, an alternative would be to list the arc rating of the PPE and not a specific calculated value. However this still requires someone to validate the arc rating is sufficient at the sub panels.

Module 7 of my free video class explains the details: Arc Flash Labeling Strategies


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:05 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:40 am
Posts: 106
Hi All, Greetings from North of the border. As we state in our CEC Part 1 up here about correct identification and labeling. I would check the NEC

Thanks
Len


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:16 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 152
The whole point of an arc flash study and labeling is to inform the worker. Inform him there is a hazard and to quantify that hazard. Why quantify? So he knows what he has to do to protect himself and those who are near the hazard. How is that worker supposed to do that if all the equipment is incorrectly labeled? Your vendor might argue that he is labeling worst case, but that won't fly if there is an accident. It's also dangerous to wear too much PPE. For example, here in Arizona, heat stroke can be a concern and someone wearing a 25 calorie suit when the hazard is only 8 calories is dangerous. Plus, who likes to work when wearing that level of PPE. The failure to correctly identify and quantify invites an accident. The labeling needs to be accurate.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:53 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:27 am
Posts: 13
Thanks everyone. I agree with everything stated here.

In the future, our specifications are changing to clearly state all labeling must be accurate to the equipment it is installed on. For this one, the compromise appears to be that they will label each downstream panel with the panel name using the IE from the upstream panel. They are supposed to verify that that IE is greater than the actual IE of that panel. It was brought up that the IE for a 2000 amp fault in a 32x48x6 panelboard can be much higher when that same fault is seen in a 14x6x4 disconnect. We may go through and redo the study ourselves as check on them.

I wonder if i should submit a suggestion to the NFPA code committee to consider clarifying the labeling requirement to require accuracy. I feel the committee would get a good laugh too. Never did I ever think this would be an argument I would have with an electrical contractor.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:08 am 
Plasma Level
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 1616
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
We are reviewing the first public inputs for the 2024 Edition of NFPA 70E now. Nothing like that is on the radar screen however....

The 2021 edition 130.5(H) states: "...shall be marked with a label containing all of the following information"

Perhaps adding "for the equipment where the label is placed" might help. 2027 Edition??

As my friend and mentor likes to say, "You can't make everything fool proof because fools are becoming smarter" :D


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Correct labeling
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:17 pm 
Arc Level

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:35 am
Posts: 543
Location: Wisconsin
Jim Phillips (brainfiller) wrote:
We are reviewing the first public inputs for the 2024 Edition of NFPA 70E now. Nothing like that is on the radar screen however....

The 2021 edition 130.5(H) states: "...shall be marked with a label containing all of the following information"

Perhaps adding "for the equipment where the label is placed" might help. 2027 Edition


I have been amazed when I have seen the downstream affected equipment label installed at the upstream protective device/'lockout point.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
© 2019 Arcflash Forum / Brainfiller, Inc. | P.O. Box 12024 | Scottsdale, AZ 85267 USA | 800-874-8883