It is currently Wed May 25, 2022 6:33 pm



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
ekstra   ara
 Post subject: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:33 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:10 am
Posts: 3
Hi, As a building owner, we have asked one consultant completed an arc flash study for our buildings. At the end of the study, we only received the report and warning labels, but not the program files and lib files. Is that supposed to be our property too? Thanks!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:17 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:42 am
Posts: 77
If you didn't specify it in the Scope of Work/contract, I'm not sure you have much leg to stand on. You can always ask...

Do you have the software to open the files if you do get them?

Mike


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:10 am
Posts: 3
Yes, we do. My understanding is that the program files shall be a property to the owner as well as the report and labels. It is not ethically right not to be shared with the owner who pays for it.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:44 am 
Plasma Level
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 868
Location: Rutland, VT
h287sun wrote:
Yes, we do. My understanding is that the program files shall be a property to the owner as well as the report and labels. It is not ethically right not to be shared with the owner who pays for it.


Not sure why you think this. Unless it was specified in the bid scope or it appears in the vendor's bid proposal under Deliverables that the program files are to be turned over at the completion of the job, I don't think you have much of a case to obtain them. You could always ask the vendor for a price to purchase the program files.

_________________
Barry Donovan, P.E.
www.workplacesafetysolutions.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:13 pm 

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:10 am
Posts: 3
If we are willing to pay for the extra to get the program files, do you think that the consultant still has the right to reject the release of their files?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:43 am 
Plasma Level
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:00 pm
Posts: 868
Location: Rutland, VT
h287sun wrote:
If we are willing to pay for the extra to get the program files, do you think that the consultant still has the right to reject the release of their files?


That would be up to the consultant. From a consultant's viewpoint, a lot of effort went into developing the model such as data collection, data input, model verification, etc. Yes, this was paid for as part of the project but the model also represents future earnings as it would be cheaper to hire that consultant for any changes and updates to the system that are made versus hiring a new consultant and starting from scratch. By giving up the program files, the consultant stands to lose that future revenue.

So the consultant will need to price the program files accordingly or may choose not to release the files. The other item to consider is that the consultant has great confidence in the accuracy of the files as long as they maintain control of them. Once they are turned over, they do not have that same confidence in the files.

_________________
Barry Donovan, P.E.
www.workplacesafetysolutions.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:35 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:05 am
Posts: 3
When I worked for Siemens, in our quote we took exception to providing the project files, Siemens considered this intellectual property. I don't think anyone ever really asked for them. I have seen this specified in some project we perform, and also they specify a view program so they can view the study. I am sure it has to do with the liability of the study, and then someone else changing the study no longer in control of the consultant.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:28 am 
Arc Level

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:35 am
Posts: 552
Location: Wisconsin
I consider the study files to be similar to any other architectural or engineering documents. Do your specifications require providing the original source/data files for software like AutoCAD or Revit?

And yes, over my career there have been times when I provided my study files, as well as times when I have asked customers to give theirs to me. I do see a reason for some files to be provided, especially when the customer might want to perform analyses that were not part of the original study scope or tasks like coordination adjustments during equipment upgrades.
But, I would not simply push the 'analyze' button on study files I was not involved in creating.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:44 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:00 pm
Posts: 129
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Yes the digital back-up files and any custom library files are the client's property. If the consultant doesn't provided them:

1. Do not use them again.
2. Pay 1 hour to get the files emailed to you.
3. Accept a letter disclaiming that they only accept liability for the details of their report and not for any changes to model after the date on their transmittal to you.

If you still have problems in Canada I would report them to the Professional Engineering Association.,


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:46 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:38 am
Posts: 57
Location: Westminster, MD
Terry Becker wrote:
Yes the digital back-up files and any custom library files are the client's property. If the consultant doesn't provided them:

1. Do not use them again.
2. Pay 1 hour to get the files emailed to you.
3. Accept a letter disclaiming that they only accept liability for the details of their report and not for any changes to model after the date on their transmittal to you.

If you still have problems in Canada I would report them to the Professional Engineering Association.,


This is my philosophy as well, that the files belong to the client.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Arc flash study program files
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:43 am 
Sparks Level

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 156
I agree, you should get the files or work product. If you want to open them, that's another deal. Sort of like getting a WORD file, to modify the WORD file, you need the program. You paid for the work and the work product should be part of what you get. We always provide the files. We also tell them if they make changes, those changes need to be reviewed by a qualified person.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
© 2022 Arcflash Forum / Brainfiller, Inc. | P.O. Box 12024 | Scottsdale, AZ 85267 USA | 800-874-8883