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 Post subject: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:42 am 
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Has anyone found a way to run ArcPro on Windows 10? I cannot even install it on Windows 10. Not sure about any 3rd party programs that could emulate a earlier Windows version.

FYI: I have sent 3 emails to the creators of ArcPro (Kinectics) specifically to Stephen Cress and it has been 6 weeks since the initial email with followups sent but I have not received a response.

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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:14 am 
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First of all, you simply cannot expect every software vendor in the country to rewrite their programs every time Microsoft pukes out another buggy operating system. Microsoft always, always, always makes sure to make many of the "core" systems so incompatible that it won't run software even from the previous version of Windows. They make all of the third party vendors rewrite everything. This forces you to constantly pay for or download upgrades for everything. With very popular software such as say Google Chrome that has deep pockets they can probably afford to constantly rewrite their software. But for niche products such as ArcPro or very complex software such as Allen Bradley's programming software, this is totally unrealistic. You need to stay at least 3-5 years behind if you don't want compatibility issues. Still, I realize that frequently this is out of your decision making power. IT departments tend to love any garbage that Microsoft sells no matter how bad it is.

Windows 7 at least supports "XP compatibility mode" which is a free download that is really just a virtual machine copy of XP with the licensing stuff taken from the host (Windows 10) system. You can do the same thing if you have a licensed copy of Windows XP somewhere. Just run your own virtual machine software. I have had very good success with both Virtualbox (version 5+ or versions prior to 4) and VMWare. Virtualbox with it's seamless mode and USB system is extremely friendly towards end users while VMWare is more server oriented in design (although it has the better PCI virtualization support). I would stay away from Microsoft's software as the stability/performance/security is questionable.

Compatibility (software and hardware) is a huge issue especially with less common/popular software like the kind that electrical engineers use to get things done. They just aren't able to sell millions of copies unlike say Microsoft Office. So the best strategy is to stay about 3-5 years behind. VM's let you do this. You can run pretty much any operating system on top of any operating system with a virtual machine. As long as paravirtualized device drivers exist, performance will be about 99%+ of the bare system.

Once you have this setup, you can forget about compatibility. How is this for compatibility? In December I finally retired my 6 year old laptop to my youngest daughter. I saved all my document library as well as all my VM's. Then I started up the new laptop and copied over everything which at this point is just data. Then I installed the latest version of Virtualbox and my VM's booted on the new laptop with no changes at all.

Some of my VM's are running 10+ year old software, like old HMI software for obsolete HMI's that was designed back when Windows 98 was around. I can run it all without any hiccups and it doesn't even know what is going on.

I can only think of two cases where I ran into compatibility issues with VM's. The first one was that I had trouble mapping some screwy USB hardware into Virtualbox for a vibration analyzer. I was able however to map over the PCI device inside VMWare. The second case is with Windows 7-64 bit. The 32 bit version is fine but for some reason the 64 bit version is unstable and crashes a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Thank you Paul. Sounds like I may be out of luck for awhile as I don't have an old XP license and I am running Windows 10 64bit. I think I have located an older laptop to run it on and put the results to a word doc and xfer to a thumb drive.

Also here is a reply from Stephen Cress:

We are testing the 2.01 to see if there is a work-around on Windows 10.

We are hoping to release Arcpro 3, suitable for Windows 10, in the next couple of months. The beta version is being tested and we are moving toward on-line sales.
It will have several added features – 3-phase arc calculations based on test data, batch processing, DC arc computation and a special feature for arcing in cable systems.


I did ask him how they are going to publicize the release and offered to post a notice on this forum.

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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:41 am 
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Cool. I know that ArcPro probably got a huge boost in sales last year thanks to changes in 30 CFR 1910.269 which strongly recommended ArcPro for modelling anything above 15 kV. The two things I'd like to see out of the ArcPro folks are:
1. Could they somehow produce some kind of report showing just how well they match up to the data sets that they mention? I realize that there's a problem here because I suspect a lot of the data is obtained by collecting it from test work done in their high voltage lab by their customers so the data is owned by their customers but if they could somehow sanitize it I'd feel a lot better. Right now as far as I know there is no public data above 13.5 kV.
2. Could they fully publish details of the algorithm? For one thing I get the impression that the software is not really a big money maker for Kinetrics...it sounds almost like its more of a service. This would be no different than many existing open source products out there, even if the core calculation engine was released as some kind of closed source library. Finite element (and finite volume) models have a significant hurdle to overcome in that 1-D models are fairly easy to write in a spreadsheet but 2-D and 3-D models are not so easy, so even if they simply released fully documented details of the equations, it is unlikely that anyone is going to clone them very quickly.

But doing so with either one makes using ArcPro much less of a leap of faith and much easier to accept overall. Better yet on the low voltage end right now there are roughly 4 competing models that I know of. There is Lee, enough said there. There is the IEEE 1584 empirical equation. There is the Wilkins "simplified" model and the more complex Wilkins "time domain" model. The "simplified" model as I understand it slightly beats IEEE 1584 by a small amount and moves towards a more theoretically based model. The reigning champion for accuracy (fits the data) is the time domain model which is computationally much more complex than the other models. It is a semi-emperical model...it is based on somewhat theoretical equations (there is one in particular that is questionable) but there are several adjustable parameters that were determined by curve fitting the IEEE 1584 data set. I would not be surprised if the next edition of the standard moves towards one or more of these refined equations.

ArcPro though is intriguing if for no other reason than the fact that it claims to be entirely theoretically based. This places it in the same class as Lee in that there is supposed to be no "curve fitting" going on so it has a more satisfying "validity" to it compared to a model derived entirely from curve fitting like the IEEE 1584 empirical model. But without either the data to support it nor full documentation we end up in a position where we get arguments such as the idea that NESC and/or OSHA are requiring commercial (can't validate) software which has an inherent uneasy quality to it. Above 15 kV other than some EPRI published equations and Lee which is dead wrong, there really isn't anything else to go by. So we are putting a lot of faith into a model that we can't even get a feel for how reliable it is.


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:56 am 
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No license is needed for Virtual XP, just download and install it. I run it with W7 64 bit, so I cannot say for certain that it will work with W10.
The problem came about when MS began selling 64 bit versions of their OS that would not run 16 bit applications. I believe this began with Vista, so Kinectrics has been extremely slow to respond.


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:48 am 
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64 bit Windows NT has been around for a long time in the server versions even back to the XP days but there were serious incompatibility problems even then. One of the major ones is that the DLL directory where all the shared libraries get dumped was moved, even if the software itself works fine. Also Windows does not handle running fall-back to support 32 bit applications unlike all other systems. 64 bit platforms can only run 64 bit software and vice versa. This breaks a lot of stuff. Windows 10 is the first time there wasn't two different versions (32 and 64 bit).

The other major issue that breaks almost everything is that the core object libraries such as COM/DCOM (used for cut/paste) and even the graphics stack are totally redone in Vista and beyond. Vista and 7 supported both graphics stacks but 10 removes the old MFC system. I believe this is partially related to getting rid of COM/DCOM.

So as I said...it's a never ending problem with their software and virtualization is the only sure fire solution I know of that consistently solves it. I always made sure to rip off the back page of the label for every copy of Windows I acquired with new hardware (when it still came with a user's manual) or whatever passed for a license/certificate. Microsoft has been really good about offering discounted or free upgrades. That way I never had to bother worrying about licensing old software.


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:51 pm 
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Barry, I'm at the lab each month. Steve is definitely in Beta Testing on a Windows 64Bit compatible version. I have not installed on Windows 10 but they are sure it will work there.

I will try to get a Beta next week and install to do a quick check but I think this is about ready for release.

I know Steve is covered up with work now that the economy is recovering so well all over.

Let me know if I can assist further.

The new version will do batch processing and have built in factors for phase and arc in a box.

Hugh Hoagland
e-Hazard.com


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:34 am 
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elihuiv wrote:
Steve is definitely in Beta Testing on a Windows 64Bit compatible version.

The new version will do batch processing and have built in factors for phase and arc in a box.

Good News - Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:18 am 
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It will be sold through HD Electric?


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:44 pm 
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Hugh,
Thanks for the input. Keep us posted but for now I am dusting off an old XP Machine and will run it on that. Will cut and paste to Word like I have been doing and put on USB drive to transfer. Cumbersome but will work.

Barry

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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:01 am 
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Less cumbersome than running Virtual XP?


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 Post subject: Re: ArcPro and Windows 10
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:12 am 

Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 11:40 pm
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ETAP ArcFault was just released and it follows NESC C2 OSHA 1910:269 and intended for voltages up to 800 kV.

The software works on Windows 10. We just bought a license since it works like the existing Arc Flash program. Very easy to use.


Last edited by wbd on Thu May 10, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
link to commercial product website removed


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